Comments on: CANNOT OR WILL NOT COMPLETELY GIVE THEMSELVES http://thelastchancetexaco.com/2008/02/24/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/ My last chance to trust the Man with the Star Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:06:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Marc http://thelastchancetexaco.com/2008/02/24/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/comment-page-1/#comment-429 Marc Fri, 29 Feb 2008 23:04:19 +0000 http://thelastchancetexaco.com/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/02/24/2008/#comment-429 My impertinence? Where the hell is that coming from? Chris, I simply think these are all valid points of discussion. The nature, depth and extent of anonymity is not cut and dry--there are a lot of gray areas. I still think there's an argument to be made to not discuss what goes on in a meeting, even anonymously, but if you are completely comfortable with your conduct in this domain, and absolutely sure of how the 11th tradition should be interpreted, then there's no reason you should be so defensive about my bringing up these issues. My impertinence? Where the hell is that coming from?
Chris, I simply think these are all valid points of discussion. The nature, depth and extent of anonymity is not cut and dry–there are a lot of gray areas. I still think there’s an argument to be made to not discuss what goes on in a meeting, even anonymously, but if you are completely comfortable with your conduct in this domain, and absolutely sure of how the 11th tradition should be interpreted, then there’s no reason you should be so defensive about my bringing up these issues.

]]> By: Chris http://thelastchancetexaco.com/2008/02/24/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/comment-page-1/#comment-425 Chris Fri, 29 Feb 2008 06:16:21 +0000 http://thelastchancetexaco.com/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/02/24/2008/#comment-425 It is rather presumptuous of you to assume that I advertise this blog to other Boise AAs. I could go on ad infinitum about your impertinence. I could delete your comments. I could point out that the 11th tradition is about the public relations policy of the movement. I could point out that the general characteristics by which I identified this woman could apply to any one of dozens of similar women. I could share with you that after carefully considering my part and how I may have harmed her and going to her to make amends she told me to not be ridiculous, that she was grateful, that she was meeting her sponsor in 10 minutes because she thought I was right and that she better get to work. And if the statement "Why, I wonder, can’t they simply embrace the truth? Then again . . .why can’t I?" isn't about the first principle then nothing is. It is rather presumptuous of you to assume that I advertise this blog to other Boise AAs. I could go on ad infinitum about your impertinence. I could delete your comments. I could point out that the 11th tradition is about the public relations policy of the movement. I could point out that the general characteristics by which I identified this woman could apply to any one of dozens of similar women. I could share with you that after carefully considering my part and how I may have harmed her and going to her to make amends she told me to not be ridiculous, that she was grateful, that she was meeting her sponsor in 10 minutes because she thought I was right and that she better get to work. And if the statement “Why, I wonder, can’t they simply embrace the truth? Then again . . .why can’t I?” isn’t about the first principle then nothing is.

]]> By: Marc http://thelastchancetexaco.com/2008/02/24/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/comment-page-1/#comment-424 Marc Thu, 28 Feb 2008 22:01:32 +0000 http://thelastchancetexaco.com/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/02/24/2008/#comment-424 Talking ONLY about YOUR experience? "The other young woman has been in and out of the rooms for over two years but can’t seem to stay sober for more than 30 days at a time. Yet she insists on calling on herself at every meeting and actually giving people advice. She yammers on endlessly about having a wonderful relationship with her higher power (lower case mine and intentional) and how she is working steps and has a wonderful sponsor and how much she has endured and remained sober and “what this program has given” her. Her first or second sentence always begins with the words, “I can honestly say.”" Excuse me, Chris, but how is that NOT discussing 1) another person 2) things that have gone on in meetings? No you are not identifying anyone by name, and the only people who would know who you are talking about are other Boise AAers, I still that it is not respecting the idea that what happens in a meeting stays in a meeting, as far as the outside world, and certainly it's focussing on personalities over principles--rather at odds with the big book quote per entry blogger I've noticed in you over the past 6 months. Of course we exchange numbers in meetings. But the 11th Tradition reads: "We need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV and films." Bill W. could not have predicted the Internet, but I do think we should at least consider in the blogosphere the degree to which we are treading in a grey area discussing so specifically what happens in meetings. I HAVE written a lot about it, and thought about it, and have concluded that the need to carry the message outweighs the need for anonymity. I will ALWAYS say AA got me sober, even in a relatively public forum as my blog, because I think people need to know that's where the solution is. But I will no longer report anything that's happened in a meeting, even anonymously. That's a decision I've come to over time, and it's a personal one, but I think the issues I bring up should be seriously considered by any blogger and I don't see how your comment addresses them at all. Talking ONLY about YOUR experience? “The other young woman has been in and out of the rooms for over two years but can’t seem to stay sober for more than 30 days at a time. Yet she insists on calling on herself at every meeting and actually giving people advice. She yammers on endlessly about having a wonderful relationship with her higher power (lower case mine and intentional) and how she is working steps and has a wonderful sponsor and how much she has endured and remained sober and “what this program has given” her. Her first or second sentence always begins with the words, “I can honestly say.””
Excuse me, Chris, but how is that NOT discussing 1) another person 2) things that have gone on in meetings? No you are not identifying anyone by name, and the only people who would know who you are talking about are other Boise AAers, I still that it is not respecting the idea that what happens in a meeting stays in a meeting, as far as the outside world, and certainly it’s focussing on personalities over principles–rather at odds with the big book quote per entry blogger I’ve noticed in you over the past 6 months. Of course we exchange numbers in meetings. But the 11th Tradition reads: “We need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV and films.” Bill W. could not have predicted the Internet, but I do think we should at least consider in the blogosphere the degree to which we are treading in a grey area discussing so specifically what happens in meetings. I HAVE written a lot about it, and thought about it, and have concluded that the need to carry the message outweighs the need for anonymity. I will ALWAYS say AA got me sober, even in a relatively public forum as my blog, because I think people need to know that’s where the solution is. But I will no longer report anything that’s happened in a meeting, even anonymously. That’s a decision I’ve come to over time, and it’s a personal one, but I think the issues I bring up should be seriously considered by any blogger and I don’t see how your comment addresses them at all.

]]> By: Chris http://thelastchancetexaco.com/2008/02/24/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/comment-page-1/#comment-422 Chris Thu, 28 Feb 2008 10:43:53 +0000 http://thelastchancetexaco.com/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/02/24/2008/#comment-422 "You ought to know how strongly Dr. Bob favored the idea of letting your name and address and phone be known so that people could get help. Same for Clarence Snyder and almost every early AA. They had rosters, names, addresses, phones, etc." <a href="http://willingtobeanonymous.blogspot.com/2008/01/note-from-dick-b.html" rel="nofollow"> Dick B.</a> Talking about my experience isn't breaking anyone's anonymity but my own. And then one has to work to figure out my last name. I don't claim to be a poster boy for AA - simply a member - meaning someone who desires to stop drinking. The only thing I've shared here that happened in a meeting was 4 words at the beginning of a sentence. I don't claim to have all the answers or even to have very many of the answers. But I DO practice the steps outlined in the book Alcoholics Anonymous and I practice them THE WAY they are outlined in the book and in doing so I have been delivered from a hopeless state of mind and body from which I despaired of ever recovering. God made that possible. I wasn't a very anonymous drunk/addict. I'm not a very anonymous recovering person. But I don't claim to be a spokesperson for AA or any other type of recovery. This blog is not an advertisement for AA. I only speak for myself. And if you struggle with the gray area maybe you should pick up a pen and write on it. Just a suggestion. “You ought to know how strongly Dr. Bob favored the idea of letting your name and address and phone be known so that people could get help. Same for Clarence Snyder and almost every early AA. They had rosters, names, addresses, phones, etc.” Dick B.

Talking about my experience isn’t breaking anyone’s anonymity but my own. And then one has to work to figure out my last name. I don’t claim to be a poster boy for AA - simply a member - meaning someone who desires to stop drinking. The only thing I’ve shared here that happened in a meeting was 4 words at the beginning of a sentence. I don’t claim to have all the answers or even to have very many of the answers. But I DO practice the steps outlined in the book Alcoholics Anonymous and I practice them THE WAY they are outlined in the book and in doing so I have been delivered from a hopeless state of mind and body from which I despaired of ever recovering. God made that possible.

I wasn’t a very anonymous drunk/addict. I’m not a very anonymous recovering person. But I don’t claim to be a spokesperson for AA or any other type of recovery. This blog is not an advertisement for AA. I only speak for myself.

And if you struggle with the gray area maybe you should pick up a pen and write on it. Just a suggestion.

]]> By: Marc http://thelastchancetexaco.com/2008/02/24/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/comment-page-1/#comment-420 Marc Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:27:26 +0000 http://thelastchancetexaco.com/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/02/24/2008/#comment-420 As far as blogging about what goes on in a meeting, shouldn't we consider adhering to "what you see here, what you hear here, let it stay here?" I know we don't know these people and you don't identify them, but aren't you rather treading on the idea of a confidential and safe space by elaborating on how someone shares in the rooms? (Certainly some of your Boise readers know of whom you speak.) I think we're already in a grey area blogging about our participation in the program vis-a-vis The 11th Tradition, (I argue with myself about it, and am trying to share more generally about recovery than I used to because of it) but I don't think this is so grey. As far as blogging about what goes on in a meeting, shouldn’t we consider adhering to “what you see here, what you hear here, let it stay here?” I know we don’t know these people and you don’t identify them, but aren’t you rather treading on the idea of a confidential and safe space by elaborating on how someone shares in the rooms? (Certainly some of your Boise readers know of whom you speak.)
I think we’re already in a grey area blogging about our participation in the program vis-a-vis The 11th Tradition, (I argue with myself about it, and am trying to share more generally about recovery than I used to because of it) but I don’t think this is so grey.

]]> By: Chris http://thelastchancetexaco.com/2008/02/24/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/comment-page-1/#comment-418 Chris Wed, 27 Feb 2008 06:49:51 +0000 http://thelastchancetexaco.com/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/02/24/2008/#comment-418 That really depends on the type of meeting it is. I tend to favor meetings that are spontaneous myself, but often that type of meeting attracts people who have no idea what recovery is all about and, to quote Norma Desmond, "they open up their mouths and out comes talk. Talk, talk, TALK! They've made a rope of words and strangled this (program)." I hijacked most of the ideas from a link that was forwarded by Irish FOB and refined them a bit and I make an effort to adhere to them when I share and when I chair a meeting. "<a href="http://thelastchancetexaco.com/how-to-share-in-a-meeting/" rel="nofollow">How to Share in a Meeting</a>" That really depends on the type of meeting it is. I tend to favor meetings that are spontaneous myself, but often that type of meeting attracts people who have no idea what recovery is all about and, to quote Norma Desmond, “they open up their mouths and out comes talk. Talk, talk, TALK! They’ve made a rope of words and strangled this (program).” I hijacked most of the ideas from a link that was forwarded by Irish FOB and refined them a bit and I make an effort to adhere to them when I share and when I chair a meeting. “How to Share in a Meeting“

]]> By: BoyGrowsUp http://thelastchancetexaco.com/2008/02/24/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/comment-page-1/#comment-417 BoyGrowsUp Wed, 27 Feb 2008 05:28:15 +0000 http://thelastchancetexaco.com/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/02/24/2008/#comment-417 This post brought out a point I had not run across before: that 12-step meeting protocol typically requires an attendee to speak only when called on? Is that written down somewhere? I'm not a 12-step expert (never even read the Big Book), but in my CMA meetings it is only rarely that the speaker or meeting leader calls on anyone. It usually is an open session. Just curious. This post brought out a point I had not run across before: that 12-step meeting protocol typically requires an attendee to speak only when called on? Is that written down somewhere? I’m not a 12-step expert (never even read the Big Book), but in my CMA meetings it is only rarely that the speaker or meeting leader calls on anyone. It usually is an open session.

Just curious.

]]> By: Marc http://thelastchancetexaco.com/2008/02/24/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/comment-page-1/#comment-411 Marc Mon, 25 Feb 2008 23:46:34 +0000 http://thelastchancetexaco.com/cannot-or-will-not-completely-give-themselves/02/24/2008/#comment-411 It's not like me to quote from the Big Book or NA's Basic Text, but I found this passage very helpful. Irritation with individuals in the program and the way and what they share about is as old as the program itself. That's why the came up with this. February 23 Messages and messengers “Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.” Tradition Twelve ––––= –––– The Twelfth Tradition reminds us of the importance of putting “principles before personalities.” In recovery meetings, this might be paraphrased, “don’t shoot the messenger.” We often get the message confused with the messenger, and negate what someone shares at a meeting because we have personality conflicts with the person speaking. If we are having problems with what certain people have to share at meetings, we might want to seek the guidance of our sponsor. Our sponsor can help us concentrate on what’s being said rather than who’s saying it. Our sponsor can also help us address the resentments that may be keeping us from acknowledging the value of some particular person’s recovery experience. It is surprising how much more we can get out of meetings when we allow ourselves to do as our Twelfth Tradition suggests, focusing on recovery principles rather than personalities. ––––= –––– Just for today: I will practice the principle of anonymity in today’s NA meeting. I will focus on the message of recovery, not the personality of the messenger. It’s not like me to quote from the Big Book or NA’s Basic Text, but I found this passage very helpful. Irritation with individuals in the program and the way and what they share about is as old as the program itself. That’s why the came up with this.

February 23
Messages and messengers

“Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.”

Tradition Twelve

––––= ––––

The Twelfth Tradition reminds us of the importance of putting “principles before personalities.” In recovery meetings, this might be paraphrased, “don’t shoot the messenger.” We often get the message confused with the messenger, and negate what someone shares at a meeting because we have personality conflicts with the person speaking.

If we are having problems with what certain people have to share at meetings, we might want to seek the guidance of our sponsor. Our sponsor can help us concentrate on what’s being said rather than who’s saying it. Our sponsor can also help us address the resentments that may be keeping us from acknowledging the value of some particular person’s recovery experience. It is surprising how much more we can get out of meetings when we allow ourselves to do as our Twelfth Tradition suggests, focusing on recovery principles rather than personalities.

––––= ––––

Just for today: I will practice the principle of anonymity in today’s NA meeting. I will focus on the message of recovery, not the personality of the messenger.

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